Christian in College

I like people.  Real people.  Shawn is a real person.  Christians should be Biblical, Missional, Global, and Relational.  Today I am practicing relational and I want to help others understand atheism not by a scientific journal article or an apologetics video – but by talking to a person.  Below is an interview taken via email.  Enjoy.

Justin (interviewer)
Shawn (atheist friend)

Tell me a little bit about yourself including your interests, your work, and your family?

 Well, I’m a 28 year old atheist man who is married to a wonderful Christian wife. We have a 4 year old daughter. At work, I’m a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and providing outreach, resource and referral, and crisis services for people experiencing homelessness. I read comics, I play video games, I love sci-fi and fantasy, and I’m a big fan of Jonathan Coulton. I’m an information junkie; I love reading blogs and crawling Wikipedia. I used to play the saxophone, but that feels like a lifetime ago.

What is the most important thing to you?

Hmm… that’s a tough to answer mostly because of the way it’s worded. When I think of “things” I think of items, possessions, etc. I think of a “thing” as something I own, a belonging. Things are tools, means to ends and not the end itself. Things can help bring about happiness and contentment but can never make anyone happy by themselves.

A better question would be “what is most important to me.” And I haven’t the foggiest idea what would top the list at #1. I can list several things that are very important to me: my wife, my daughter, being able to help people, growth, being effectual, enjoying life, having new and varied experiences, learning. But I don’t think I’d label one thing as “most important” kinda how you don’t pick your favorite amongst your children.

What event in history during your life most sticks out to you?

Again, “most” is hard for me because there are a lot of them that are equally memorable and significant and influential. Also, I’m not sure if you mean a historical event that happened while I was living or a historical event from my own life. But to play along and just pick one for discussion.

A few years ago when I was still a nondualist (didn’t know it was called that back then), I was sitting in a supervision session with my social work mentor. We were talking about my beliefs, specifically about how I wasn’t sure what it was called and I didn’t know anyone who shared the same beliefs. Through towards the end of the session he revealed that he too shared the same beliefs. I made the remark that I didn’t feel as alone anymore. He looked down at the floor, nodded his head, and smiled.

What is an atheist and do you claim that title?

Simply put, an atheist is someone who rejects the claim that deities exist. An atheist doesn’t necessarily assert that no deities exist, although I do.

I definitely claim the title of atheist, but I also misuse it for my own ends.

When I call myself an atheist, I also mean to say that I’m a secular humanist, a skeptic, a methodological naturalist, and a rationalist. I use the term to include the fact that I don’t believe in anything supernatural or superstitious. I believe that nature is all there is and that there is almost certainly no god or gods. I’m not 100% sure of course, but I’m pretty confident barring new evidence.

It is a complete misuse of the term, the error of which I fully embrace.

Is there a purpose to life?

I’ll word it this way: I don’t believe that there is an intrinsic, innate, universal purpose to life in general and as a whole. I believe that a goal of life is to reproduce and perpetuate. This goal is, I think, innate, but only because it has to do with how we use the word “life” in the first place, it’s how we define life.

Purpose describes intent while goal describes objective. I believe a life can have a purpose just as an object can have a purpose, but only when someone is around to assign a purpose to it. I think a theist would say that god gives us purpose, but I would obviously disagree because I don’t believe in gods.

Furthermore, I think when some people ask “is there a purpose to life” what there really asking is “is there a point to life”, “is there a reason for life”. The question framed this way practically presupposes a creator being (or beings) or at the very least, some kind of established system.  It’s scary to think that we’re just here alone with no big man in control, but we’re not alone. We have each other. We can (and do) make our own goals, and projects, and even make our own purpose. Sometimes we just call it different things.

How do you determine right and wrong?

I’m a big fan of Alfonso Fye’s Desire Utilitarianism model of morality.

Even at a young age, I’ve thought that intrinsic, universal concepts of “good” and “bad”, “right” and “wrong”, don’t actually exist. That what we think of as universal morality is basically culturally accepted norms (personal preference) that gets labeled as the laws of god or inalienable right to add weight to it. Who are we to question god? But in the end they universal laws and rules, concepts of right and wrong don’t actually exist, we just made them up.

But of course, personal preference isn’t good enough because preferences change all the time.  This is the crux of Euthyphro’s Dilemma: is it good because god says so, or does god say so because if it is good. Option 1 suggests that it’s just god’s personal preference. Option 2 suggest god himself has to meet a higher standard, and we’re still left with the original question.

Fye argues that desires are the only things we can say objectively exist. Because they actually exist, we can co-opt the term morality and make a code based on it. The short version is that desire utilitarianism says that things are “right” when they tend lead to the fulfillment of more and greater desires. As such, things are “wrong” when they tend to thwart the fulfillment of more and greater desires.

It’s all interesting, but wordy, so interested readers may want to Google it. But to answer your question in more practical, less theoretical terms: I look at the past, research the options, consult people smarter than me, consult those who disagree with me, argue my point, make the call, and live with the consequences.

Tell me a little about your experiences with Christians and the church?

Without being too verbose, because I can already see I’m getting long, I’ll just say that my experiences with Christians and the church have been mostly average. Nothing too exciting or too painful or too uplifting or too dramatic. I can give you one story that was really touching though.

During the summer before my senior year of high school, a friend of mine invited me to a church camp. It was a weeklong kinda thing. Half way through someone (possibly my bunk mate) stole all of my cash from my luggage. The very next morning, all of the other kids in my small group pooled their money and replaced every last dollar I had stolen from me. I don’t know when they got together to do it, but I cried when they did. The lord giveth and the lord taketh away?

That’s kinda been thematic of my experiences I guess, a bunch of really nice, well meaning people, with the occasional rotten egg who really knows how to ruin the party.

Are Christians “stupid”?

That’s a pretty broad question. I wouldn’t say all Christians are stupid. I think some Christians are stupid, but I’d venture to guess that the prevalence rate for Christian stupidity is pretty similar to that of the general population. I think some atheists are stupid too, along with some Jewish people, some Muslim people, etc. It’d be fun to see some data on this though.  We’d probably need an operational definition for “stupid.”

If I were to try and provide a better answer in the spirit of your question, I think Christians (like other spiritual groups) look at the world and come to a different, sometimes incorrect, conclusion. We all have questions, and I think spiritual people are less satisfied with “I don’t know yet” as a valid answer. Rather than reserving judgment until they can learn more, they assign an answer to the question to better understand it. This answer may not have been well researched or well investigated, but sometimes any answer feels better than no answer at all. I understand the desire and I don’t think it’s stupid, just misguided.

How could Christians positively impact your perception of them while still holding to the Bible?

Stop talking and start living. I understand that Christians aren’t supposed to be perfect, nobody is. However, when I look at someone who’s accepted Jesus into their hearts, something should look… I dunno… different.

Something should be different. If the scriptures are true and believers are fundamentally changed, Christians should be better than the rest of us: kinder, more compassionate, more loving, more understanding, more empathetic, less materialistic, less capitalistic less judgmental, less dramatic, more grounded, happier. Something that will make me think “hey, I want the life that person has, I want whatever they’re having too.”

I can tell you that one thing that negatively impacts my perception of Christians is that, in my experience, they behave the same, if not worse, than everyone else. For me, at the end of the day, actions matter more than intent. Results matter to me. If I can’t see the positive teachings of Jesus Christ reflected in your life, it doesn’t matter what the bible says. In other words, you can carry a weight loss book around all you want, and give me great advice all you want but if you’re still 300 pounds of mostly fat, I’m not going to listen.

The saying is cliché, but “practice what you preach” is a great start.

Can you think of a Biblical scripture or principle that would impact the world in a positive way if everyone believed or held to?

I don’t know if this is actually in the bible, but I heard it in church one day. The pastor said “Jesus loves so much that he accepts you where you are, but loves you too much to let you stay there”. I live by this at work, but replacing Jesus for me of course. Working with the homeless requires a lot of empathy, acceptance, and understanding of how a person came to this situation. But once we’re clear on that, all of those reasons become excuses. At some point, we need to throw away the excuses and start moving forward because those excuses are now holding us back.

Liberals too often cling to excuses and want to coddle people with welfare. Conservatives too often ignore root causes and systematic and interpersonal reasons and just want everyone to pull themselves up by their boot straps. I’m aware of the middle ground fallacy but, in this case, I think the responsible and ethical route in this case is a nice balance. It’s the difference between enabling or ignoring and empowering.

Give me a goal you have for the next week:

There are a bunch of homeless people who I’ve been working with over the summer now that I’d love to finally get off the street and into an apartment of their own. We’ve been stalled due to budget issues and bureaucracy but I think I’m in striking distance of making it happen.

Year?

 I’d like to have another kid. One more would be really nice for my wife and I, but if we don’t, I’m cool with that too.

5 years?

I would like to see my wife graduate with a college degree. She never got the chance to do it yet and she’s really excited to get started. She’s never had anyone in her life encourage her to achieve all that she can. It’s been a dream of hers for a while now and I intend to make that happen too.

Thanks for the opportunity, Justin! This was fun!

- posted online by Justin

Are you really living?